00:04:14:03 - 00:04:45:06

So with these with these four major archetypes, you said they're a progression for us to evolve towards greater wholeness, integration, mastery and and so can you do you think you could summarize really quickly because they also play in our roles, not just in these, you know, these these plays, you know, by Shakespeare. They they are I think he was communicating something to us about the importance of that journey of individuation and self-realization. 


00:04:45:08 - 00:05:07:05

And if we are all progressing through these four stages, what would be the key lessons that each of those four stages delivers that it wants us to learn? And then, you know, how can we assess like, well, where am I at with this progression so that I can also look at where do I need to be so that I can progress forwards and keep moving through the stages? 


00:05:08:07 - 00:05:40:20

Well, if we look at the arousal of the contemporary initiate, and when I say that, I mean the person that is awakening to the fact that they have soul, they have spirit, and they wish to live their lives as a spiritual being, having a human experience rather than a human being having a religious experience. There is the awakening of the lover because we begin to realize that there is an intelligence within us and without us that is infinitely greater. 


00:05:40:24 - 00:06:22:08

But we in the in these fourscore years and ten that Shakespeare speaks of, except we we know that we are part of the divine splendor is within it. So we are stars wrapped at skin. So we become lovers. Yeah. And then as soon as this takes place, we begin to realize that our ego, which is often caught in glamour, in our lover archetype, needs to be exercised and is often exercised by those people around us, by the communities that we fall into or move into, that we rise into, that we rise to love into rather fall in love into. 


00:06:22:17 - 00:06:52:22

And we we're challenged. So we have to become warriors, which means that we become spiritual warriors where we have to be absolutely acute with our own truth and not live out the glamour existence of. By the way, did you notice that, Crystal, isn't that amazing? You know, call that spiritual converting. It's more about, you know, just the crystals vibration help you rather than acquire, acquire, acquire, acquire. So that can impress you all. And so as a result of that, we're really exercised. 


00:06:52:24 - 00:07:25:17

And of course, along comes the shadow complex in the warrior status. So we're taken into the long, dark night of the soul. And when we're taken there, it's tragic and it's visceral and it's cathartic and it's deeply disturbing. But of course, along comes somebody who is kind and says all conditions are temporary. You will get through this. This is an endurance test. Well, keep going. Keep going. It's shit at the moment, but just keep going so we become sovereign. 


00:07:25:19 - 00:07:57:11

The I am presence brings us into our sovereignty. This is not an idea. This is a literal experience. Because after all, in the long, dark night of the soul in the warrior status, we're taken to the very quick of our beings because we're on the verge of death. It may be moral death. It may be emotional death, because we have to give up the co-dependency and move away from those people that have been toxic in our lives, even our dear, you know, so-called dear ones, our family. And we realize that our soul family is what we crave because there we really see. 


00:07:58:11 - 00:08:25:10

And when compromised. So we move then into the ability to bring in the magician in simplicity, in these few moments of sharing with you that we can muster. But you know, you've introduced me to a question that I have never actually been asked before. Within this contemporary context, I've thought about it as you can hear, but I've never been asked. So I will think on that and maybe I can come up with even great explanations. 


00:08:25:23 - 00:08:27:11

Your next book, perhaps. 


00:08:29:05 - 00:08:29:20



00:08:31:05 - 00:09:04:06

Maybe. Because certainly the publishing world no longer wants books about angels. No. First start writing. Having met this group of angels 35 years ago, when I first started writing books, everybody wanted me to write angel prayers and angel books and produce angel oracles. And now they're saying, Oh, really? And I've got this really fascinating book called Angelic Activism partly within me and partly on, you know, on paper or computer. And they're saying, No, don't write books about angels. We've got too many books about angels, which there's a time you really need angels. 


00:09:04:08 - 00:09:05:10

It's now. 


00:09:05:16 - 00:09:07:06

Yes, true. True. 


00:09:07:21 - 00:09:42:22

If we can come back to the magician for a moment, because you said something earlier about how words are almost like spells, you know, and in the mystery traditions, especially in the Western sort of Kabbalistic mystery school tradition, they say that, number one, all magic is spoken. All magic is spoken. So if we basically what it's saying is that our words weave a magic. They weave an energy that can actually impact our reality and help shape our reality. 


00:09:42:24 - 00:10:20:21

So words really matter. If we really think about that as you speak, so shall it be. And and yet, in today's world, coming back to that topic of devolution, we are living in a world where even our language is devolving and the use of words today, people kind of think it doesn't matter and they get really loose with their, you know, word usages and or even the meaning of certain words has been polluted and diluted so that the way it's used today was not at all like you mentioned, hierarchy, not at all what its original meaning was. 


00:10:21:07 - 00:10:37:19

So maybe you can share a little bit about this because you're, you know, you're really a wordsmith. And in addition to being a voice alchemist, how would you help maybe people to understand the power of words and especially as we work with the archetype of the magician. 


00:10:40:07 - 00:10:50:18

Where it's absolutely beautiful and totally cohere with what you're saying. I feel in encapsulation that words anchor states. 


00:10:54:06 - 00:11:03:17

And of course, we're not talking about the word. We're so literate that when we say word, we automatically think of that hieroglyph. We think of that glyph, that printed word. 


00:11:05:07 - 00:11:35:10

Well, if you can't read, you can't do that. So we experience the sound of the word within, and it's the sound that creates the magic, the altering of the sound. If you like the orchestration of the sound, A Gerta, the great German poet, said that all architecture, meaning sacred architecture, was frozen music. But within the architecture there was frozen music. And indeed, in the creation of Shakespeare's globe, we used English Oak. 


00:11:35:12 - 00:11:49:18

So I went with the Woods craftsman, the master woods craftsman, into forests in the United Kingdom, where he chose wood that was 400 years old. So in other words, the oak had Shakespeare's voice within it. 


00:11:49:20 - 00:11:50:11

Oh, wow. 


00:11:51:14 - 00:12:21:15

The sound. And of course, they spoke English in a totally different way from the way that we speak today, which is almost incomprehensible to us. However, so sounds, words, anger, states. And so we grab hold of an idea called the logos, which is a Greek word, meaning the intelligibility of sound. And I learned this many years ago from an Aramaic scholar who had the who had readership of the Vatican Library for ten years. I met him. 


00:12:21:17 - 00:13:03:24

He was a very old gentleman who was working at the Sorbonne, but he had given readership of the Vatican Library because he was one of the key people that were on the site in nJt in Qumran when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. And of course, we know the Dead Sea Scrolls were these artifacts, were these papyrus scrolls with Aramaic written upon them that were part of the scene? Peoples that lived there, scene sect or spiritual group that lived in the area? And he said one day all of these scrolls, by the way, some of them are in the in the great museum in Jerusalem and just say in private collections around the world. 


00:13:04:02 - 00:13:41:09

And some are in the Vatican Library. This was a wonderful man, Professor. And he said to me he was Hungarian and he had this little voice like this. And he said to me, you know, inside Vatican Library, I saw some amazing things, absolutely amazing things. Saw the Ark of the Covenant. Anyway, so he told me lots of interesting stories. And then one day there I was looking at the papers and I read in the beginning was sound and the sound was made flesh and dwelt among us. 


00:13:41:17 - 00:14:18:16

So we realized that the sound is the logos, not the word. So when we talk about words, we're really talking about sounds. So sound is crucial to us today because we're all listening to sound just as people are seeing this. But hearing this and you are weaving spells not just by what we say, but by how we say it, because sound is a powerful dimension of the meaning. All all of these words are just orchestrations of sound, and they're the balance of vowels and consonants. 


00:14:18:18 - 00:14:51:06

Vowels are all freely omitted. Passages of sound and consonants are all stopped. So one of the things that I would do, for example, I still do with great public speakers, is to show them how they can how they can really eat words. If we eat words, we feel them, we enrich them. We are saturated by them because nobody wants to eat an evil world word. We want to eat beautiful words and luxurious words and glorious words and inspirational words and intelligence. 


00:14:51:08 - 00:15:04:13

So how do we eat them? It's looking to the vowel and the consonant. Because if I say, Oh, a E, I have different lip and tongue shapes, but they're all vowel sounds that make up words. And then there are books 


00:15:06:24 - 00:15:44:20

that stop sounds that are consonant. So the vowels, generally speaking, are associate with the way we feel. And the consonants are, generally speaking, the way we think. The consonants frame that they give, construct the so you can hear it in Shakespeare because there's a wonderful man at the beginning of Midsummer Night's Dream who says No fair Hippolyta unnatural hour draws on apace, but oh, methinks along this old moon wanes. 


00:15:45:04 - 00:16:16:17

So it's all very rich to realize what he's actually doing. He's wooing his bride. He's wooing. Really what he wants to do is let's get this over with so we can jump into bed. Now, that affects the entire intelligence of the actor playing it. It's very different when you're playing the scheming Murderer from the Scottish play. There's a great actor. Of course, I would not mention his name, but everybody will get it. When when this being says if it were done, when it is done that were to well done quickly. 


00:16:18:07 - 00:16:50:14

So the consonants indicate that he's in a in a position of gross indecision because he feels the portent of what he's about to do by killing the king, vaulting ambition, he becomes the king. And so what he's doing in his indecision is to try and make sense. Oh, we've all been there. So he's making sense in the moment, in the holy instant of this feeling through the consonant when you examine language. Thus it suddenly becomes language words. 


00:16:50:16 - 00:16:52:22

Spelling becomes acute. 


00:16:54:16 - 00:17:38:12

Love how you how you've shared the you know, it's far more about the sounds that we utter than just the words, for example. But you know, in ancient times, all of the original languages were spoken languages, they weren't written languages. And so the oral tradition and like, you know, coming from a Kabbalistic tradition and know the same is in Sanskrit and kanji, many of the ancient languages that we still have access to and some understanding of today. The letter was actually almost like a semantic impression of the sound as it impressed itself upon matter or materia, you know, the word or the sound made flesh. 


00:17:38:14 - 00:18:19:21

And so the the letters were more the frozen music, if you will, the sacred geometry or the glyph that the sound itself made. And so it is very much about the sound. And yet these ancient languages were every letter, for example, was an embodiment of an essence that is a creational essence. And then as you bring those various sounds and letters together, they form, you know, formulas, they form, you know, the sentence structure, the, you know, the whether it was more vowel, more consonant. 


00:18:19:23 - 00:19:12:08

And so forth. But in every way in which they were spoken was imprinting itself upon the fabric of this density that then helped shape materiality. And in the newer study of cymatics, we can really see how sound shapes matter. And and yet, you know, for our language today, um, when you know, to kind of come back a little bit to the evolution of our language today and our use of words and sound today, that, you know, when we go back to digging into the deeper essence again of these words because, you know, back when words were created, for example, whether we're going back to ancient Greek or, you know, ancient Hebraic or Sanskrit, you know, we go more to the ancient words and their original meaning. 


00:19:12:10 - 00:19:47:02

They were basically putting formulas together. And those formulas had an essence, a vibration, a signature that would imprint itself upon, you know, the quantum field or upon the the the the materia of this world. And so etymology, for example, etymology study and going back to the original essence and the origins of the words helps us come to a realignment of our understanding of the meaning, the deeper essence and meaning of these words and love. 


00:19:47:04 - 00:20:18:15

How you did that, for example, with hierarchy, a lot of people these days associate hierarchy with, you know, some pecking order, some kind of patriarchal structure that's just political and and human made. But when you really look at the original essence of hierarchy, it is a structure of the sacred. And that in order for energy and creation and light to flow, it needs that order and it needs that sort of distribution of the energy from the one source to the multitude and. 


00:20:18:17 - 00:20:27:12

And in a way that is ordered versus chaotic. Right? So, yeah, I just think that people can really reconnect to the original meanings. 


00:20:28:03 - 00:20:28:18

And ask. 


00:20:29:10 - 00:20:59:19

The question, why did they not write? Why was it all just spoken? Because after all, when we speak, it's alive. And the part of the Native American tradition that I became involved. America is very alive and in the early 90s. Think 1991, as called by Native American shaman who worked with me in New. And he was extraordinary. God, he was so powerful. It was a sound shaman. 


00:20:59:21 - 00:21:33:01

Meaning is interesting. He was sound shaman. He was sound in shamanism. So we hear the word again, You know, just as Marinus would sound the depth of fathoms. They here the depth of fathoms by throwing over the plumb line. You know, he he. He also created sound through magic. Or rather, he created magic through sound. So one. So he. One of my initiation was to make into Kiva which 13ft below the mesa. 


00:21:33:11 - 00:21:48:22

And when we close the trapdoor, we climb down a wooden ladder into this hole in the in the in the mother earth. And he closed the trapdoor. It was pitch black. And when he settled himself and started chanting, the whole place lit up. 


00:21:50:09 - 00:21:51:07

Yeah, of course. 


00:21:51:10 - 00:22:24:15

Said Why? What's that all about? And he said, Well, you see, when we chant certain sounds, the pineal releases a fitting luminescent chemical and their sound is light. And I suddenly realized in that moment, you know, having call to Egypt as a pilgrim when I was 15, 16, 17, I just had to go that I realized how those essentially male priests painted the temples or painted the tombs that are essentially very dark. 


00:22:24:17 - 00:23:04:09

And it wasn't so through some clever cylindrical or circular bronze device where they shone the sun from the entrance down to another, down another. No, they chanted, and the whole place lit up so they could see the illuminate the illumination. And so what? Joseph? His name was beautiful Painted Arrow or Antarctica. He taught me that the reason why his people don't have a written language is because when land is written, when sound is written, it becomes frozen in time and therefore it loses its vitality, It loses its anima. 


00:23:04:17 - 00:23:43:11

Isn't that fascinating? Which is why, although we write spells down in our grimoire, isn't that wonderful word grimoire that if we write them down or in our holy books. We have to be really respectful of the fact that in the moment, as they move through us, we need to fresh mint the sound so it becomes truly special. And I don't know about you, but being brought up in Christianity as a child, this always confused me because I never heard the truth, because I would hear, Oh, Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, Thy kingdom come. 


00:23:43:14 - 00:24:18:11

And think, What on earth is going on here? Which is why, over the years in simplicity, I've developed as a voice coach this ability to say, Could you just let the energy drop into your heart? It is the me that's quite crude because most people say, Oh, yes, yes, but they still can't because they don't know the meaning. Even prelates of the Church of England or the Church of Rome. But eventually our food of experiences I get them into. Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 


00:24:19:07 - 00:24:50:17

Then the whole experience changes as they literally are living. The originality and the ingenuity, all that learning is all about. This is why sound is the dimension of the meaning. And I would say the most powerful dimension we get to put up in our intellect. I mean, all of this, you know, people say, oh, you're such an intellectual. I'm not just read and love words. So I can always remember the age of eight. I spent two years of science and then self muting, and then I because the world was just too much. 


00:24:50:19 - 00:25:07:19

Nobody understood what was talking about. And then when I came back speech her the word was significant and it was the most beautiful word I'd ever heard. Didn't know what it meant. I put it into every sentence until my amazing mother said, Darling, 


00:25:09:10 - 00:25:50:03

what does it mean? Don't know. It just love it. You say, Okay, well, that's beautiful. I'm glad you love it. But what it means is that it has a lack of value. Surely you mean you're talking always about value? Surely you mean significant. And so something huge happened as I ate the word. As I breathed the word significant. Those syllables. But I was also seeing sound then, as was I was synesthesia and would see sound as waves of energy as the extraordinary flowing energy, which is why couldn't read because was being brought up. 


00:25:50:05 - 00:26:23:18

But the cat sat on the mat and there is nothing staccato about me. Everything is seeking, flow is seeking. The outer is seeking because this is based on the premise of the movement of time and the nature of time, this extraordinary force that God has created. I you know, I was watching a show on TV last evening, which is full of extraordinary. It's very dramatic, but it's full of the most beautiful words. 


00:26:24:13 - 00:26:33:05

And one of the major protagonists said it's not the years in our life that counts. It's the life in our years. 


00:26:33:10 - 00:26:34:01

You know. 


00:26:34:06 - 00:26:54:08

It's that respect and veneration and devotion for the time aspect as we live the value of our integrity. That's Abe Lincoln, by the way. It's a quote from Abe Lincoln. He said some extraordinary things, however. So, yeah, we have a rich conversation, you and I. We create spelling. 


00:26:55:05 - 00:26:56:16

Yeah, we do. 


00:26:56:18 - 00:26:58:18

Let's do it again. Let's do it again. 


00:26:59:21 - 00:27:33:23

Now I know, I know. I know. Our time is kind of coming to its end, but I'm wondering if we can maybe just touch on this. You mentioned the long Dark Night of the Soul is one of those stages of, you know, the four progressions in between Believe the Warrior and the sovereign. And this is something that I've often talked about and written about as well in the alchemical sense, that we are going through a journey of transformation socially, chemically, and we as a collective right now, it seems like on the planet that we're at that stage of the long, dark night of the soul. 


00:27:34:05 - 00:28:29:15

And, you know, we're facing our collective shadow because that's that guardian of the threshold that we have to move past. And so in facing that, we have to face our fears. We have to come to understand that darkness that's within us, seeing each other as mirrors to ourself rather than seeing ourselves as separate. And, you know, this is playing out again in so many ways, you know, in our world. So I guess the big question is, if we wanted to kind of bring this to a close is how how do we move through this stage? Right? How do we move beyond the the shadow and the mediocrity and the evolution towards that breakthrough into the sovereignty, the self mastery, they, you know, being the magicians in this world to create a better way of life. 


00:28:29:17 - 00:28:31:13

What would you say are the keys? 


00:28:32:24 - 00:29:04:14

Hmm. Well. I feel it's a very sanctified process, although part it is also meaning the long dark night of the soul is a sanctified process, although part of it is that we have to go into the wilderness because the long dark night of the soul is a recalibration physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. Neurology gets. I put an expletive in. And so we realize on the outside when we're going through it, it's just. 


00:29:05:06 - 00:29:56:12

But we realized when the other side that it is spiritual, it's a form of madness where everything is imbalanced until we come back to the raw, essential truth of who we are, not what we are. And so. The difficulty with it is that we have to go through it alone. And most people have huge problem with the specter of a loan. Actually, one of the disciplines that I have is to put another L in the word and suddenly realize that a loan means all one, because it means that we're no longer in relation to the habitual relationship processes that we have with weight, space and time, or the animal kingdom, the vegetable kingdom, the mineral kingdom or other human beings or systems. 


00:29:56:14 - 00:30:27:13

There is just us and God. So we have to go to those who know. We have to go to the mystics. Just as we know. Saint John of the Cross wrote about this. Mother Teresa wrote about it as Christian mystics, Dionysus. The area guy wrote about it. Hildegard von Bingham wrote about it. These are these are Christian imprints because I'm a Western man who, through spiritual and blood lineage, has been brought up within Western traditions. 


00:30:27:15 - 00:30:56:07

I've also, as I've said, been drawn into Native America and into Buddhism, and they're saying relatively the same thing. We have to go to the master or the mistress who understands, who literally doesn't often do anything. Be with us. So we feel the madness is contained on some level by this reference. Lifebuoy This extraordinary being who? 


00:30:57:23 - 00:31:32:16

You know the other day, Monarch the other day, sometime ago. But the other day I was in deep dialogue in my platform, deep dialogues, which you also honored me by coming on to the most remarkable woman who. Her name is Serena, and she was born into an occult cult. Her mother was who was a Satanist. Her father was a CIA operative in the 50s developing mind control. And they decided to have a child to disassociate the child on every level of the experience of what it is to be a human being. 


00:31:32:18 - 00:31:34:16

That's terrible. Okay. Well. 


00:31:35:01 - 00:31:51:08

This is really what happened. So this child, this child is still with us as a grown woman. But this child became this associative and in fact, developed over 300 sub personalities that she lived in. And. 


00:31:53:10 - 00:32:26:02

Of course, life was chaotic and, you know, and she was constantly falling into psychiatric hospitals and on drugs and so forth. But there was always a burning light within her to to find a way of bringing herself to a point of refuge, to a point of salvation. And it just so happened that one day, many, many, many years ago, somebody said, why don't you go to Lee Carroll in his meeting that she was in the town of city of Seattle in Washington state. And she went this evening and listen to Leigh Channel cry on. 


00:32:26:24 - 00:32:52:16

And and whole being opened. She stepped forward and said, I need your help. And he said, Work with this woman here. And she worked with this woman for over 25 years. And they called back through the name of the Sacred Feminine. They call back every fractured part, every just associate it. Some of them were not humanoid. Some were dust mites that she would become. 


00:32:55:09 - 00:33:31:06

Now she is completely integrated and teaches primary integration. I feel that this is the long, dark night of the soul in a very aggravated or extreme or exaggerated form. Serena is extraordinary. She's breathtaking. She takes my breath from me. She I'm good with words. She takes words from me. The essence of this being is so quintessentially an enrapturing for human Serena of the Divine Feminine, because they called these these beings back through breath. 


00:33:31:08 - 00:33:58:15

They call these beings back through profound compassion, profound empathy. She's now fully integrated. When you're with her, you can feel it. She's whole. She went through the long, dark night of the soul and she's discovered the magic. That will heal everything within our physical, emotional, mental and spiritual experiences. This has been an amazing conversation. Thank you so much. 


00:33:58:17 - 00:34:03:08

Thank you so much for your time and we'll look forward to having further conversations down the line. 


00:34:04:05 - 00:34:05:19

It's been exciting. Thank you so much. 


00:34:06:06 - 00:34:07:04

Okay, bye.